Current disputes

– New discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Companion (Doctor Who) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Alex_21 (talk · contribs)
• Shubopshadangalang (talk · contribs)
• Just Another Cringy Username (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This article has several problems, as per the tags I placed. Before tearing into it, I engaged on the talk page. I'll admit I came in hot, as I often do, but I did my best to keep the discussion focused on the article. I started the BRD cycle, whereupon my edits were reverted wholesale and I was accused of edit-warring when we had barely reached 3R.

Other editors made general suggestions about "improving the article rather than mass deleting." I contended that the article is so overloaded that mass deleting was appropriate. I'm removing unsourced and primary-sourced material, original research, and excessive detail more worthy of a fan wiki.

Other editors subsequently asserted that RS must exist somewhere and I should simply make a few polite trims. IMO, the vast majority of the article is unencyclopedic and I doubt the claim that RS exist. Talk page discussion has remained contentious and the two sides are unable to reach consensus on their own.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Companion_(Doctor_Who)#Cruft!

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Moderators should provide guidance on whether the article as written is properly encyclopedic, in particular

1. the use of TV episodes and other officially-licensed material as sources

2. the amount of original research and intricate detail

3. the appropriateness of large-scale deletion of perceived problematic sections as opposed to small trims

Summary of dispute by Alex_21

The filing editor started a discussion on the talk page, instantly, in their first post, accusing editors of being fanboys and that anyone else contributing would likely be a hindrance. After they were recommended to follow BRD by an uninvolved editor and administrator, the filing editor's bold mass removals were then reverted; instead of moving solely to discussion, they then forced their edits once more and discussed at the same time, hence going against the advice provided to them and starting an edit-war (note: there is a vast different between edit-warring and violating 3RR; I never said anything concerning the latter).

The other involved editor and myself provided feedback on these mass blank deletions and how they are more detrimental to the article than contributive, and provided advice on how to find sources and, at the very least, allow other editors time to improve the article, reminding them that there is no deadline. This advice was also ignored, and thus we end here. The editor has not contributed noteworthy discussion since, and has simply taken it here instead of replying to any of the advice provided to them - it is hard to reach a consensus when one side makes demands and will not discuss in good faith or a collaborative manner.

Mass deletions do not help improve an article. Not allowing other editors the time to contribute does not help improve an article. Calling those that they disagree with "fanboys" does not help improve an article. Making demands and forcing their edits after being reverted does not help improve an article. Copy-editing, trimming, adding sourcing, raising specific concerns, allowing time for editors to contribute, those are things that help an article and discussions move forward. -- Alex_21 _TALK 00:06, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I also question Just Another Cringy Username's decision to file this report as an IP (98.36.171.112 (talk · contribs · blocks · count · rollback · admin · logs)) and thus while logged out? -- Alex_21 _TALK 00:11, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I was the one who filed this and I didn't mean to give any impression otherwise. I took a long time putting this together and got logged out automatically. I didn't know until I went to alert you two. Just Another Cringy Username (talk) 02:05, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

No worries, just wanted to clarify and that makes sense, cheers. -- Alex_21 _TALK 02:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I believe this discussion/dispute is not a concern over the content itself, but rather a clash of what we editors determine to be contributive or constructive. On one side, two editors that have been here since 2007 and 2014 believe that tagging, sourcing and editing the existing material to be more encyclopedic is constructive. On the other side, the editor who has been here since 2022 believes in mass deletion without the attempt to improve the content, given that out of their most recent thousand contributions in the mainspace, only 22% have been additions (i.e. adding to an article), and 77% have been removals (46% of the total of which have been marked as major removals; i.e. over 500 bytes). -- Alex_21 _TALK 23:35, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Improvements to the purportedly problematic sections should at least be attempted before deleting over 1/3 of the entire article all at once with no warning. I'm a casual/occasional editor, but I've been through this process for nearly 17 years, and to me this should be obvious, particularly as the article itself has been around longer than that, so the existence of the content has on some level been through many rounds of editor consensus already, even if the quality of it needs improvement. Obvious or not, I believe that is the correct approach, and I dare say most experienced editors with far more edits under their belt would agree. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 20:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Shubopshadangalang

The new* user continues to overreact by elevating what should be a civil exchange to a "dispute" rather than taking advice on how to make constructive edits. Honestly, putting it through this process at this point is a waste of time and energy for everyone involved, so I won't waste any more time summarizing. Alex 21 already summed it up sufficiently above, and I agree entirely with their assessment. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 15:24, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: *I see now that the user in question made a mistake with the anonymous/IP attribution above, but that the actual user has nearly 2 years of experience editing, and that "new" isn't exactly the right term… I made a false assumption based on the behavior and tone of discussion that they were brand new to the process of editing.

Companion (Doctor Who) discussion

Zeroth statement by moderator (Companion)

Please read DRN Rule A, and state whether you agree to discussion under these rules (moderated discussion). Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. If you are ready for moderated discussion, please also state clearly what you want to change in the article, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:38, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Statement 0.1 by moderator (Companion)

I advise User:Just Another Cringy Username to request technical advice, either at Village Pump Technical, or elsewhere, as to how to avoid being logged out while composing a long post. That misfeature was undesirable and confusing, as the above discussion indicates. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Noted. Just Another Cringy Username (talk) 04:20, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Companion)

I have read and understood Rule A and I agree to abide by these terms.

This article's problems can largely be solved by holding it to the standards of WP:RS and WP:WAF. As it stands, the article is largely sourced by officially-licensed primary sources such as TV episodes. This is particularly prevalent in the sections Roles, Families and Childhoods, Loss of a Companion, and Deaths. Unless editors can provide proper secondary sources which meet RS, all such material should be deleted. A vague assertion such as "I'm sure there are sources somewhere and maybe someone will find them in the future" is inadequate.

These same sections contain large amounts of excessive detail and original research, commonly known as "fancruft." Detailing the life stories of every single Dr. Who Companion needlessly bogs down what should be a general overview article, especially considering that each of these characters has their own dedicated article already. The solution is the same: remove these sections entirely.

Ideally, this article should consist of a history of the Companion concept, a list of the Companions themselves, and any pertinent reliably sourced real-world discussion of the concept. Anything more and the article veers into territory more appropriate to a fan wiki than WP. Just Another Cringy Username (talk) 04:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

– This request has been placed on hold.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Indigenous peoples of Mexico (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• DataNStats (talk · contribs)
• Uruguayan989 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Me and another user have a disagreement regarding how a set of data should be represented in the article. The issue arises from the differentiation between fact and opinion. I post a set of numbers backed by cited material, and the other user disagrees with the cited material based upon original research.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Indigenous_peoples_of_Mexico#About_the_20%_figure https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Uruguayan989&diff=prev&oldid=1196355951 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DataNStats#Edit_warring_and_Reverting_to_an_incorrect_estimate

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Many sources have been cited in our discussions. It would be helpful to have a nonbiased party see what the arguments are on either side. We can cite sources and say exactly where in the source our claims are said to be factual. This will make it easy for a 3rd non-biased party to distinguish fact from opinion.

Summary of dispute by Uruguayan989

Indigenous Peoples of Mexico discussion

• Volunteer Note - There is also a request for a Third Opinion at the Third Opinion noticeboard. This filing is on hold waiting for a response from the Third Opinion, and will be closed if the Third Opinion resolves the dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

– New discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ottoman Hungary (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• OrionNimrod (talk · contribs)
• DeCausa (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An independent country with long history/same land, Kingdom of Hungary (Hungarian capital, Hungarian founded, populated cities, lands) was invaded (after centuries long withstand) and occupied by a foreign far country, Ottoman Empire (and making many bloodshed, crimes, enslaving Hungarians, robbing Hungarian children to became Ottoman soldiers). When Hungarian lands and Hungarian population became again part of the Kingdom Hungary pushing out the invader foreign Ottoman army that event called official "Liberation of Hungary" by Hungarian historiography. Do the modern reliable academic sources does not matter in Wiki? Just one example: USA gov website: [1] The medieval Kingdom of Hungary was conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1526 and was liberated by the Austrian Empire in 1699. DeCausa says that "liberated" word is not allowed on Wiki (because NPOV), however I see many examples after fast research, even article and topic titles have "liberation":

• Liberation of France in France was liberated, and even Paris was liberated on 25 August 1944. As the liberation progressed,
• Ottoman Serbia "with the Serbs under Karageorge defeating the Turks in several battles, liberating most of Central Serbia."
• Greek War of Independence "to achieve liberation from Turkish rule" "first Greek Constitution and appointed the members of an executive and a legislative body that were to govern the liberated territories"
• Liberation of Bulgaria "the liberation of Bulgaria refers to those events of the Tenth Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878)" "he 1878 declaration, which signified Bulgaria's break with the Ottoman rule, was actually the second liberation of Bulgaria."
• Liberation of Serbia, Albania and Montenegro (1918) "Allied Army of the Orient liberated these three countries from occupation by the Central Powers."
• Warsaw Uprising "Polish underground resistance to liberate Warsaw from German occupation" "the invading forces of the Western Allies as they liberated Europe from

I do not understand why "liberation" word would be not neutral in this case, that land in Hungary which was occupied by Ottomans is not debated between 2 parties (like many other lands where I agree we should use neutral term). For example Paris belongs to France clearly, so that is not a German land, if Germany occupied and if the Germans were expelled then it means that land was liberated, that is fact, not just a POV. Perhaps Germany was occupied if Paris was reconquested? No, because the original French land was reconquested = liberated from the enemy occupation. As we can see many Wiki articles use that term as standard, and nobody think that usage violate that NPOV rule in those case. Here, 3 different countries were under Ottoman occupation: Liberation of Bulgaria, Ottoman Serbia, Greek War of Independence, Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece was occupied by Ottomans as Hungary, and all articles use "they were liberated from the Ottomans" those are exactly same as in the case with Ottoman Hungary.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ottoman_Hungary

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I do not understand the massive double standard, that every other country could call "liberation" in an article if the Ottoman or Nazi invaders were expelled, but using exactly the same term for the same Hungarian event is not allowed as DeCausa said. (Or do I have right to remove the liberation word in the other articles based on the rule what Decause mentioned? I would be curious what other user would say in those articles if I would do that as Decause did in this case, I bet it would be a resistance)

Summary of dispute by DeCausa

Ottoman Hungary discussion

Zeroth statement by moderator (Hungary)

There has so far only been a statement by one editor. Moderated discussion at DRN is voluntary, and if an editor does not respond, they are viewed as having declined to participate.

Please read WP:DRN Rule D before commenting further. If there is moderated discussion, it will be in accordance with this rule, and will be subject to the ArbCom decision on Eastern Europe. Hungary is a contentious topic area because Hungary, like the rest of Eastern Europe, is subject to battleground editing because it has been historically the battleground between its native Western culture and invasions, e.g., from the Ottoman Empire and the Soviet Union.

Whether we have moderated discussion will depend on whether User:DeCausa responds. However, I have two comments. First, User:OrionNimrod is reminded not to use DRN as a soapbox. It isn't necessary to describe great wrongs that were committed in the sixteenth century. Second, whether the end of Ottoman rule of Hungary is described as a liberation should depend on whether reliable sources describe it as liberation. To make our own judgment as to whether it was liberation is to engage in original research. I agree that many of the same conditions apply to Hungary in the seventeenth century as to Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria in the nineteenth century, but we do not make that decision in the voice of Wikipedia unless it has been made by historians and other reliable sources. Either find reliable sources that use the term with respect to Hungary, or show that reliable sources do not use the term with respect to Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria. Whether other countries are said to have been liberated is other content and is out of the scope of the article on Ottoman Hungary. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:15, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Hungary)

I agree, Wikipedia should be based on reliable academic modern sources. Above I linked the talk page, I provided a lot of academic modern sources which describe the war against the Ottomans as event as "liberation of Hungary" which led the end of the Ottoman occupation in Hungary. I provided a lot of Hungarian sources to show what is the mainstream Hungarian historiography term regarding this, because this is a Hungarian topic. I also provided many academic sources from different countries regarding this, which also used the same term "liberation of Hungary". I also provided examples from many other articles which had the same historical situation: Ottoman occupation, and all of them use "liberation" term when Ottomans were expelled. Like other example war topics like the libeartion of France against the occupier Nazi Germany use that term. That is why I said it cannot be NPOV if articles with similar situation are using that + supported by academic sources as official term. OrionNimrod (talk) 18:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

– General close. See comments for reasoning.